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INDIAN Timing Before Top Dead Center / 45cui + Carillo Rods

  • 16 Jun 2023 3:51 AM
    Message # 13216026

    Ignition timing on INDIAN could be very difficult and annoying when there are no or inaccurate markings.
    And especially in the TDC area, measuring the angular line of the flywheels is very difficult because the dial gauges can hardly detect any movement in the vertical direction on top of the piston. This can account for an error of 1-2°.

     

    In a CAD program, I determined the exact dimensions at which position of the flywheel which distance of the piston comes out before top dead center.

     

    That applies to INDIAN 750ccm / 45cui
    Stroke 3.500" / 88.90mm
    Length connecting rod (center/center) 7.400" / 187.96mm (Specification Carillo)

     

    This results

    10° BTDC = 0.83mm

    20° BTDC = 3.30mm

    30° BTDC = 7.27mm

    33.5° BTDC = 9.525mm = 3/8" / 0.375" (Specification Indian Factory for Sport Scout 640 - but that might be quite to far BTDC for most engines)


    1 file
    Last modified: 16 Jun 2023 4:00 AM | Manny
  • 16 Jun 2023 5:53 PM
    Reply # 13216316 on 13216026

    It is fiddly to determine TDC and get some sort of mark on the flywheel on a assembled engine. A degree wheel can be attached temporary with hot glue or other means to the main gear or crank shaft on the other side. Another way to determine TDC is to insert a rod through all the way to the opposite cylinder wall through the spark plug hole and carefully and gently turn the engine to stop, mark the position and turn the engine the other direction until stop, mark that position and mark exactly between the marks for top dead center. 

  • 17 Jun 2023 5:57 AM
    Reply # 13216396 on 13216026

    Hi Carl-Erik,

    I used both ways you mentioned and they really work well in the past. Good tips.

    The problem I see with old cases of the 20s is that they don't have the timing hole like the late 30s ones.
    OK, you can use the hole of the handpump elbow or the oil level plug, but they are a little to small or difficult to reach.

    I really like to insert a 3/4-24 UNS thread inside the case to use later Indian standard timing hole plugs.

    Asuming you have already marked the flywheels TDC during assembly (preferably on both cylinders) you can then flash the ignition point with a transparent plug and a ignition timing light that has an advanced timing wheel.

    I know it's not original, but when done well it's hardly noticeable and checking the ignition timing and possible misalignments between the cylinders is a matter of minutes.

    I think, when you want to have an engine as fast and reliable as possible, you need a way to check the timing with an ignition pilot light gun to eliminate or consider all play in the gears and in the magneto (or distributor).

    2 files
    Last modified: 17 Jun 2023 8:37 AM | Manny
  • 18 Jun 2023 3:07 AM
    Reply # 13216587 on 13216026

    I have a timing mark on all 3 of mine  at the hand pump nipple hole  . Done  when rebuilding   , Not that hard to see with a dot of paint  in a center punch  mark  ,All my marks are at 5/16 BTDC

    Regards Phil

     Manny wrote:

    Ignition timing on INDIAN could be very difficult and annoying when there are no or inaccurate markings.
    And especially in the TDC area, measuring the angular line of the flywheels is very difficult because the dial gauges can hardly detect any movement in the vertical direction on top of the piston. This can account for an error of 1-2°.

     

    In a CAD program, I determined the exact dimensions at which position of the flywheel which distance of the piston comes out before top dead center.

     

    That applies to INDIAN 750ccm / 45cui
    Stroke 3.500" / 88.90mm
    Length connecting rod (center/center) 7.400" / 187.96mm (Specification Carillo)

     

    This results

    10° BTDC = 0.83mm

    20° BTDC = 3.30mm

    30° BTDC = 7.27mm

    33.5° BTDC = 9.525mm = 3/8" / 0.375" (Specification Indian Factory for Sport Scout 640 - but that might be quite to far BTDC for most engines)



  • 20 Jun 2023 1:17 AM
    Reply # 13217273 on 13216026

    Hi Phil,

    it's a good info that the hole of the handpump will work either.
    And 5/16 BTDC seems to me the best timing for the 101.
    I measured one of my older engines with a Bosch magneto and it's definetly exactly that 5/16.

    Thanks
    Manny

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