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Steering neck bearing upgrade?

  • 04 Jan 2024 7:23 PM
    Quote
    Message # 13297271
    Jordan Marshall

    I'm trying to get my 1928 101 Scout roadworthy so I lowered my fork to check the bearings and bearing cups. The upper bearing had 25 1/4" balls (supposed to be 21) and the upper cone doesn't look good to me so that will get replaced.

    The lowers looked fine, but I wanted to know if there are any upgrades to be done here while I have it apart like timken bearings etc, or should I just stick with the old style loose ball bearings?

    I've read here and there about people installing timken bearings and machining the adjusting cone flat, but was wondering if anyone has specific information I could follow for this? IPE used to have a super neat tapered roller bearing set for the 101 scout but looks like it's not available anymore.


     

    2 files
  • 05 Jan 2024 6:07 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 13297358 on 13297271
    Manny

    Hey Jordan,
    I always use Timken tapered roller bearings as steering head bearings on all Indians.

    Since the dimensions differ in the models, I cannot say an exact part number.
    Most of the time it's the case that the inner ring fits on the steering head, but the outer one in the frame is too small.
    I then always turn small cups that compensate for the difference in the holes.
    The advantage here is that you can easily leave them a little bit higher and thus have a kind of simple dust protection.
    When the inner ring is to big for the steering head you can also compensate that with a small collar.
    In the pictures you see the cups made of brass.

    And I don't turn turn the upper cone nut totally flat, I only turn the inside flat so it looks like a cup too and stays original from the height and specs.

    The Timken bearings are both slightly higher than the original bearings, so the motorcycle is a few millimeters higher at the front, but I'm OK with that.

    It's best to measure everything carefully and then contact a Timken dealer. With Timken it is often the case that there are different outer rings for an inner ring and vice versa, so you have to choose four different part numbers.

    What I found in my older workshop notes is...
    "Timken JL26749F-JL26710-ASFERSA 32x53x14.5 mm
    Timken L45449 / L45410 29x50,292x14,224mm
    Both need to be adjusted with brass cups and there is also a collar at the top."
    Unfortunately I didn't note which model it was for exactly. But it was definitely Indian.

    All the best
    Manny

    2 files
    Last modified: 05 Jan 2024 6:11 AM | Manny
  • 11 Feb 2024 5:59 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 13313806 on 13297271
    Mike Byrne

    Why do you need to chance the bearing from original design?

    Are these Timken the taper roller type, or are they thrust bearings with

    bearing rollers in horizontal position.

    I bought a replacement kit from Reno Indian of the original ball type.

    Mike.. 
  • 11 Feb 2024 4:55 PM
    Quote
    Reply # 13313972 on 13313806
    Jordan Marshall
    Mike Byrne wrote:

    Why do you need to chance the bearing from original design?

    Are these Timken the taper roller type, or are they thrust bearings with

    bearing rollers in horizontal position.

    I bought a replacement kit from Reno Indian of the original ball type.

    Mike.. 

    I didn't need to, was just curious if it would make a big improvement. I determined that the oem style was good enough and I ended up buying a replacement kit from Walker's.
  • 12 Feb 2024 4:12 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 13314076 on 13297358
    Philip Jenner
    Manny wrote:

    Hey Jordan,
    I always use Timken tapered roller bearings as steering head bearings on all Indians.

    Since the dimensions differ in the models, I cannot say an exact part number.
    Most of the time it's the case that the inner ring fits on the steering head, but the outer one in the frame is too small.
    I then always turn small cups that compensate for the difference in the holes.
    The advantage here is that you can easily leave them a little bit higher and thus have a kind of simple dust protection.
    When the inner ring is to big for the steering head you can also compensate that with a small collar.
    In the pictures you see the cups made of brass.

    And I don't turn turn the upper cone nut totally flat, I only turn the inside flat so it looks like a cup too and stays original from the height and specs.

    The Timken bearings are both slightly higher than the original bearings, so the motorcycle is a few millimeters higher at the front, but I'm OK with that.

    It's best to measure everything carefully and then contact a Timken dealer. With Timken it is often the case that there are different outer rings for an inner ring and vice versa, so you have to choose four different part numbers.

    What I found in my older workshop notes is...
    "Timken JL26749F-JL26710-ASFERSA 32x53x14.5 mm
    Timken L45449 / L45410 29x50,292x14,224mm
    Both need to be adjusted with brass cups and there is also a collar at the top."
    Unfortunately I didn't note which model it was for exactly. But it was definitely Indian.

    All the best
    Manny

    One thing I always do is run a wire  between frame  and forks  ,This  protects the bearing surface  from spark erosion on the surfaces. Greasy bearing surfaces are poor contact electrically   .
  • 18 Feb 2024 12:38 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 13317257 on 13313806
    Manny
    Mike Byrne wrote:

    Why do you need to chance the bearing from original design?

    Are these Timken the taper roller type, or are they thrust bearings with

    bearing rollers in horizontal position.

    I bought a replacement kit from Reno Indian of the original ball type.

    Mike.. 


    Hi Mike,
    There's a reason why companies like Timken invented the tapered roller bearing.
    In the original bearing with the loose balls, the bearing has a slight side play over time purely due to the design, unless it is pre-tensioned too tightly.
    The balls only got tension at two diagonally opposite points.

    With tapered roller bearings, the contact surface is multiplied in order to absorb the lateral forces, which means that the steering axle is centered significantly and no longer wears out so much as a bearing with individual balls.
    I've often had original bearings where there was a "notch" in the middle position where the balls wear out the bearing race.
    This is actually impossible with tapered roller bearings.

    I always use tapered roller bearings in all my motorcycles whether they are Indian Norton or Triumph.
    Whether street use or racing.

    Why stick to outdated designs when there are more durable and better ones out there?

    And I forgot to mention...

    In the 90s, when we were still racing antique motorcycles all over the world, we took care and use Stuarts Engineer Marking Paint to see how the loose balls in the steering heads were wearing and you could see that that's usually not the case that they lie diagonally but only in the direction of pressure, i.e. top and bottom, which causes the bearings to wear out quickly.
    We also measured the loose balls with fairly precise measuring devices (and I still do that today with all the balls or rollers that I use for Indians) and the measured values sometimes differed by up to 8/100mm.
    We also tried this with Timken bearings and got less than 1/100mm.

    So my opinion is:
    Use the more updated version of that bearing when you want to travel much or want to go fast or stick to the crappy original ones ones when it doesn't matter;-)

    Greetings
    Manny

    Last modified: 18 Feb 2024 1:14 AM | Manny
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