The 101 Association, Inc.
For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
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SEIZED FRONT CYLINDER

  • 10 Dec 2014 9:46 AM
    Message # 3167644

    The front cylinder of my 101 nipped up on me the other day.  I had no option but to let it cool off and ride home.  On inspection I find the front pipe blued, and oil baked-on to the front cylinder (the engine normally does leak a small amount of oil).  An easy starter before, the machine now will not start.

    This was my second ride out after fitting a flutter valve – there was none fitted previously, resulting in overpressure and oil leakage.  As the only thing I’d changed was to do with oil control, I’m slightly worried that it’s overheated due to lack of lubrication. Is a seizing front cylinder symptomatic of oil issues?

    I’ve made a small list of things to check, but would appreciate any suggestions of what I should be looking at from longer-term owners who may have experienced this problem.  I’ve not had the opportunity to begin stripping it down yet and would like to know where I should be looking before I do.

    Thanks in advance…

    Stuart

  • 11 Dec 2014 4:39 AM
    Reply # 3168179 on 3167644

    Other inputs are valued.

    I am sorry to hear about your problems, Stuart. Not fun to dig into a breakdown. However, it would be educational with pictures so if you can and like to share in our Yahoo group it would be nice.

    Best would have been if you checked the oil level at the side of the road when it nipped up. If you had enough oil in the crankcase, there is something else that caused the nipping up and not because you installed a functioning flutter valve.

    But, did you readjust the oil pump flow for the new condition with a flutter valve? Was the valve lash ok, or could it be that the exh. valve lash did close up and the valves evolved a leak? Did you check for intake nipple leaks at any time before?

    An important indicator is the blue pipes. There can be several causes for the blue pipes, but it shows that the combustion is not finished until the exhaust valve opens and it'll flame in the exhaust tube. Or that the valves did leak.

    A timing that is too late, late meaning too close or over top dead center, let unburnt gasses out that will burn in the pipes. The cause of late timing can have several reasons, not only wrong magneto cog index marking (don't trust them until you have checked those!), but also cross fire between the hot leads, irraticly grounded points, broken or weak points spring, faulty condenser or maybe the wrong points cam. Be ceratin you have a 42 deg. cam. (or timing ring in the case of Bosch) The first time the timing is checked it should be done on both cylinders.

    A lean carb.mixture will give a weak mixture that is not able to burn at the rate it should, is missing power pulses or burns all the time until exh.valve is opening. Intake leaks can develop at any given time if not assembled with utmost care. A cylinder can even develop a crack at the intake nipple. A leaking intake manifold or nipple or perhaps obstructed gas flow in the carb or lines can be the cause it does not want to start again.

    Wrong cam timing can also cause blue pipes. Check the valve opening timing for both cylinders against specifications before you trust the markings! Faults in the pinion shaft or pinion gear key slots, or a broken key, can alter the cam timing.

    Blue pipes can indicate that the exh valves has been overheated, as well as overheated pistons, and I would check the valve seats for micro welding and regrind them and the valves if any signs of rough surface is showing.

    Check the piston pin bushing(s) as well for overheating. They have a tendency to turn in the eye and block oiling.

    The piston rings are most likely, or rather for sure, toasted when the cylinder has nipped for you. Rings are easily overheated and do loose tension in that case, so take a peek at the rear ones also. Check especially the piston ring ends, if they are showing signs of touching ("butting") the oil is scraped off the cylinder and the piston nips inevitably. That may be one, or THE reason your cylinder nipped up. Tension can be measured but you need specifications or a new one to compare with. And if they are stuck in the ring lands the engine has a hard time to amass enough compression to start easily.


    Last modified: 11 Dec 2014 5:51 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 11 Dec 2014 7:59 AM
    Reply # 3168228 on 3167644

    Thanks for the quick and comprehensive reply Carl-Erik.

    I checked the oil level when it first nipped up - there was slightly too much in the cases.

    I had not considered the magneto issues.  I've never actually checked it's a 42° unit - the machine ran very smoothly before the incident so I had no need to.  That's now on the checking list, thanks.  Likewise the gudgeon pin.  At least the engine's easy to strip on these bikes.

    I'll pop a few photos up as I go...

    Cheers; Stuart

    Last modified: 11 Dec 2014 8:01 AM | Stuart Morgan
  • 17 Dec 2014 2:54 PM
    Reply # 3171899 on 3167644
    Deleted user

    I am also sorry for your troubles, but working thru them is usually how we learn. The hard way.

    I don't think a 45 degree mag cam would have run smoothly. I had one and it was obvious  something was wrong just in the tone of the motor. Easy enough to check, but does require removing both heads.

    A word of caution on the flutter valve. I don't think lack of the disc would cause over pressure, but know from experience that if the disc is bound, by either a gasket, gasket sealer, or it shifted when installed, then you will have excessive crankcase pressure. Mine kept pumping all the oil out the pushrod tubes (and every other crevice) until I freed the breather disc. With all the positive pressure, the crank and cylinders will starve for lubrication.

    Last modified: 17 Dec 2014 2:54 PM | Deleted user
  • 18 Dec 2014 4:12 AM
    Reply # 3172294 on 3167644

    Hi Doug.

    Thanks for letting me know about the mag.  I assumed I'd realise if I had the wrong one fitted.  The motorcycle ran smoothly and powerfully before the ‘incident’.

     

    re. the flutter valve:  without the flutter valve there was oil seeping from every crevice, as you experienced.  I took it that this was due to the large pumping effect of the pistons on a v-twin.  Once the air is sucked in through the flutter-valve-less breather hole, it finds it difficult to get out through such a small hole in the crankcase in the 30 milliseconds or thereabouts the descending pistons allow it, leading to a buildup of pressure in the cases and subsequent loss of both oil and efficiency.  I’ve dispensed with the gasket on the breather valve case and have a lapped metal-to-metal fit, so no danger of a hung-up flutter plate.  It does appear to work a treat, but the seizure coincident with me making this sole change to the engine had me worried…

    Work and preparations for Christmas (and a small matter of having to fix my wife’s scooter which I have also killed) have got in the way of fixing the 101.  It sits forlornly in the corner of the garage making me feel guilty every time I go in there.  Normal service will be resumed in about a week I think!

    Stuart

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