The 101 Association, Inc.
For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
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Thickness of front brake linings and size and length of chain

  • 02 Oct 2016 10:21 AM
    Message # 4286265
    Anonymous

    Hi all, can anyone tell me the original thickness of front brake linings for a 31' (or the max thickness I can use with modern linings)? Also I need to buy a chain, can some one give me the spec and length I need to buy?

    Thanks

     

    Graham 

  • 03 Oct 2016 7:48 AM
    Reply # 4287280 on 4286265

    Not thinner than 3,6mm, really the lining should be starting out thicker than that and ground or milled or turned to the actual drum size with the shoes mounted on the backing plate. That will reduce any distortion the shoes can have, wrong arc or twist. The more care you are taking in consider with the front brake details the better it works. The handlebar lever range is very small and all is needed in order to be able to squeeze the lever far and hard enough. 

    The backing plate needs to pivot on the hub bearing nut fairly precise or you can't have a small enough play between the drum and lining without drag when the backing plate rattles and vibrates during run. The center hole in the hardened backing plate washer is always worn oval, the hole can be ground larger and round but the hardened bearing nut needs to be redone to fit the hole then. 

    Cam play in the backing plate bushing is important, when the cam cants in the bushing you loose leverage at the handlebar. The cam flats are important and might need a slight skimming to reduce the wear just at the important tip, not to be rounded off- If the tips are just worn slightly more rounded, more lever range than you think is lost by that. 

    The eye is fooled by the shape of the cam when the ends are half round as they are original, the ends very well could be square and they are on most other brake brands. The contact point to the shoes is only at the edge where the flat ends. The flats is never in use, as soon as you adjust the wire with the adjuster on the backing plate in order to take up the idle play, the cam is turned a few degrees. So the shoes always rest on the very tip of the cam. When you brake, and brake hard the cam is only turned very very little from default setting, a couple of degrees.

    If the cam edge is rounded only a bit from new and the shoe contact point is worn, the ratio is changed and it takes a few more degrees to turn the cam in order to transport the shoe the distance it needs to contact the drum. That means the lever at the handlebar sinks deeper in, and the brake feels ineffective and spongy.   

    The shoes might need a slight skimming of the flats to reduce the point wear from the cams. And the play at the brake shoes rear pivot must not be large. No slop allowed front to back on the pin and the shoes must not touch each other. If it is left untreated all that is making the brake feel spongy and the handlebar lever range is too small to take up the play in the brake.

    And of course the drum needs to be round, preferable ground to adjust the very common fault, distorted conical! Best is to grind when the rim is assembled and trued.

    When all that is fixed you'll find that 3,6mm thick lining is far too thin. 

    On the Occhio lungo blog there is an excellent article on how to rivet the brake linings. Pay attention to the type of rivets, preparation and method of riveting, it is important! Front linings can be glued in a modern fashion without ill effects, but the opinions are divided on what method is best with the rear linings, riveted or glued.

    https://occhiolungo.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/how-to-reline-drum-brakes-and-band-brakes/

    Last modified: 04 Oct 2016 3:56 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 03 Oct 2016 8:07 AM
    Reply # 4287288 on 4286265

    Usually chains is sold in a standard length, some 110-115 links I think and you have to cut it to the length you need. Length of course depends on your gearing and the length I have with (I think 21 front) and 36 rear is 104 links.

  • 04 Oct 2016 7:39 AM
    Reply # 4288850 on 4286265
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Hi Graham, if you get to travel north at all, Daryl and Arthur at Rockerbox just south of Farnham ( Wrecclesham ) will sell you chain by the length, from various manufacturers.. IWIS is probably the best brand available in standard chain for your size , (3/8 x 5/8 ) , they will also sell you a good quality chin splitter, probably Renold or similar branded item. (Renold chain seems to have lost quality, tools still good.) . Get a few links extra, say 110/112, and buy an extra split link too while you are at it. 

    Stunning breakdown of brakeplate issues there, Carl-Erik. On the ball as ever.

  • 05 Oct 2016 7:33 AM
    Reply # 4291169 on 4286265
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    AS an aside, a friend had two of his brake band sets on a JD Harley relined by a friends crane company, that used the same friction material they use on their hoists, It destroyed the drums in a few hundred miles. Anyone got a good source for lining material ? Have used the green fiberglass type before , but have had that burn out on one guys bike on a long downhill run.

  • 08 Oct 2016 10:44 AM
    Reply # 4296953 on 4286265
    Anonymous

    Hi Tim, I was planning to use Villiers (see their advert) 

    http://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=146

     any knowledge of their products? 

    Graham

  • 13 Oct 2016 8:41 AM
    Reply # 4303759 on 4286265

    Here is a snippet from this site: http://www.vintagebrake.com/index.html

    DRUM BRAKE TIPS

    Carefully inspect drum surface for grooves (obvious), crown (not so obvious), out of round and high-low spots (dial indicator). Crown often occurs with riveted linings. High-low spots commonly result when relacing hubs. There is no substitute for a freshly turned drum for premium friction materials to bed-in against. It's like putting a new piston in an old bore-never as good as with a fresh bore and hone. And you should inspect drum surface with the same critical eye. Tolerance: .002 to .004”" any dimension. Up to .010” out-of-round may be tolerated.

    If you are re-riveting new linings yourself, DO NOT drill out the rivets. Chisel off the peened end and drive the rivet out.

    Materials currently available far exceed those previously available. Reline your shoes with a current premium compound

    Keep in mind the low unit pressures required for mechanically operated drum brakes. Most linings require the higher unit pressures available hydraulically.

    Very few modern materials are compatible with pressed steel drums.

    Lay back leading edge of leading shoes in 1/2 inch increments to minimize initial "bite" if brake is too "grabby", especially when hot.

    The expanded metal used to cover scoops is typically 15% to 23% open area. Replace them with stainless steel screens with 50% to 60% open area, tripling air flow.


    Use sealed wheel bearings --grease vapor can contaminate linings. Once contaminated, they never recover.

    .Lubricate backing plate components SPARINGLY with a 500F. + degree grease, such as Sta-Lube Sta-Plex Extreme Pressure, available at NAPA.  Liberally lube parts and assemble. Disassemble and carefully remove all excess grease.

    Check to see how far the backplate extends into the drum. Too far in and the sides of the shoes drag on the hub, creating excessive heat. Epoxy a shim to the inside of the backplate. Not far enough, and a ridge forms where there is no contact. Bend backplate or remove material to correct.

    Worn pivot shafts cause uneven actuation. Rebush if necessary.

    If a stay is used, make sure it does not cock the backplate.

    Always apply brake when tightening axle.

    If you want to arc the linings yourself, and have access to a lathe, first mount the relined shoes on the backing plate. Turn on the lathe (300-350rpm) to .020" under drum I.D. in .010" cuts.


    Last modified: 13 Oct 2016 8:45 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
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