The 101 Association, Inc.
For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
"You can't wear out an Indian Scout"
 

1931 101 Tank

  • 09 Jan 2017 5:43 PM
    Message # 4519294
    Anonymous

    Sadly the baffels in the fuel tank on my '31 have come loose, and at the same time the modern fuel is eating away at the lining someone had put in years ago. I can either have the current tanks torn apart, repaired, and repainted, or I can look for a new tank and have it painted.

    Any suggestions from the group as to the best way to proceed?  

  • 10 Jan 2017 8:46 AM
    Reply # 4531910 on 4519294

    I am not saying it is impossible and undoable to restore a rusted tank so that it is unsafe to use, not at all, but I want to point out the difficulties and pitfalls that I have found it can be. I have successfully repaired and restored old tanks both welded and soldered. I have restored them both by welding in new metal or patched holes with solder. But I have failed also and that is a bit dangerous with an incendiary bomb between your legs. I feel sorry every time I see a bike engulfed in flames.

    The thing is with rust that rust thins out fresh metal and rust make pores in the metal. That induce all sorts of problem for the restorer whatever good or bad he is. Thinner metal makes the tank weaker and pores are very hard to get into deep enough to clean in order to repair.

    Any grinding or sanding makes the material thinner, well there is a safety margin for the material strength you think, but it is on rusted areas that you grind that already is thinner. Solder in itself adds next to nothing to the integral strength of the tank. It is just like glue. Only strong when gluing parts together. The strength of a soldered joint depends very much on that the parts are fitted as tight and close together as possible. There is an exception, at the edges of an assembly especially the oil tank seam, and at the edges of the reinforcement plates and bolt fittings, there it needs to be a generous fillet radius in order to prevent cracks to start.

    I file, grind and sand out the pores you think, but that is a truth with modification. There is thousands of pores of different depths and it is not certain you get in deep enough to eliminate all of them. Sandblasting with abrasive media has a nasty tendency to peen over the pesky miniature pores that you want to eliminate. Acid needs to be neutralized good or it'll bite you in the ass. Electrolytic rust removal is the better of the poor ways to get rid of rust.

    The solder cover all of the rusted but cleaned out and shining area you think, well that's also a truth with a twist, All newly soldered area is smooth, gleaming and shining but the fact is that the acid that you etched the rusted area with or the flux you used to solder, did not get entirely down all of the microscopic pores that remains in the metal so the solder is only bridging over those! 

    In the microscopic small covered pores there can be remains of both rust and flux and the solder is thinner there or has microscopic holes in it. If the fresh soldered tank tank is left untreated in the open air on a shelf for some years, you can find, as I have done, that rust has emerged from those tiny remaining holes or the rust pores has proceeded through the sheet metal!

    Rust needs oxygen to live and that is present in the flux, in the air, or in the watery gas in the tank, and it is getting to the metal through paint damage or in any way it can. It never sleeps.

    So you think, I just cover the inside with a tank lining. That's good BUT. It's just another layer that can induce all sorts of problems down the line, problem with drying or hardening, problem to get a uniform thickness, dissolving or softening in foul gas, crack, blistering, flaking, granulating, releasing colour. It also hide underlying rust until the blister breaks up. And not the least, utter pain in the ass trying to remove a failing lining! And the goober does absolutely nothing to the integral strength of the tank. 

    Now to reproduced tanks.

    New sheet metal is better than rusted sheet metal. Well, that depends in part on the sheet metal thickness. Sorry to say I don't know the metal thickness of the new tanks. I got one repro tank, but I haven't yet disassembled that. Add to that I can't tell with certainty who has made it. And it was many years ago that I bought it so I can't say anything about recently reproduced tanks.

    A original 101 tank consists of (I think it was 24-26) parts that is soldered together depending on if it is the -28 tank with the through the tank stopper, or later. It goes without saying that that is very elaborate and expensive to manufacture and assemble. So it is tempting for any fabricator to skimp on details and reduce the amount  of parts in order to be able to sell it for a price that at least a few are willing to pay for it.

    The problem with that is that the integral strength of the tank is compromised, especially if the outer skin possible is thinner than original.

    And I found that is the case with the reproduced tank that I have. Again, I can't say anything about recently reproduced tanks.

    There is no slosh baffles, it should be 2. That's bad because they distribute the forces to the top of the tank, makes the bottom much more stiff. And what's worse, there is no plates to reinforce the bottom of the tank. Original there is 4 large thick plates soldered at the bottom to distribute the jolting, pounding, vibrating weight of some 14 liters of sloshing fluid. And a smaller plate for the gas line petcock at the rear. So all the lines and bolt fittings are soldered plainly to the skin. There is no stiffener beads either on the oil tank side as it is original.

    My purchase is not a total loss anyhow. The outside tank shape, measures and fit is excellent so it is really useful for changing skin on one of the rusted out originals that I have. I am going to just use all original details from the old tank and transfer them to the new skin! The new tank filler necks, threads for lines and bolts is just as original so maybe I use some of the new details.

    Last modified: 12 Jan 2017 5:28 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 11 Jan 2017 7:25 AM
    Reply # 4541843 on 4519294
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Nick, I think Jurgen Hecker is the only guy reproducing the 101 tanks without the compression release tube at the moment. Give him a call- Hecker 101.

  • 12 Jan 2017 8:38 AM
    Reply # 4543803 on 4519294
    Anonymous

    Yes - Jurgen Hecker makes good quality tanks !  No mounting alignment issues either, with much more stronger seams.  Silver solder on original tanks, eventually weakens, becomes brittle with age, and subsequently fractures with vibration.  The danger here, is escaping fuel, whilst underway, this fuel may well make it's way, to electromagnetic areas, providing ignition for combustion. The bike is well ablaze, before the oblivious rider, realizes the danger at hand.  Put the original aside, and invest in something sound, providing peace of mind and safer riding conditions !!  Incendary ticking time bomb.....to say the least !

  • 13 Jan 2017 5:39 AM
    Reply # 4545724 on 4519294

    I bought a tank from Reno Indian - http://reno.indianmoto.cz/index.php?id_category=24&controller=category&id_lang=7&p=3  - very good quality , everything lined up with proper threads and was quick on delivery . Very pleased with his service . best wishes , Ken

  • 13 Jan 2017 8:19 AM
    Reply # 4545914 on 4519294
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Yup, thanks Ken, Reno worth a try too, altho last time I checked Petr was out of stock. His were /are nice too. 

  • 22 Jan 2017 3:02 PM
    Reply # 4562339 on 4519294
    Anonymous

    There is no problem with restoring original indian tanks. Im doing two right now. I have done 18 so far and most have had mouse nests in the bottom and rusted so badly they look like a screen door.  Do not weld sheet metal, the heat is too much and will warp it.      The only way is:  

    Take them apart with a hot iron.  make new threaded inserts for the bottom bolts and make them heavier. Hot tank all of the parts so that they can be tinned.  tin all parts.  Use three different heat ranges of solder when assembling, first tack all parts together with high heat solder, then fill in with medium heat solder, then fill in any dents or holes with brass fine mesh screen and low heat range solder. Brass fine mesh screen is available at the hardware store.  most radiator shops can hot tank  and tin your parts so that they are easily re-assembled.  When a tank is completely tinned its better than new raw steel.    you can get an app on your cell phone called PURE GAS, it has a map for your area with most all stations that sell non ethanol gas. 

    Happy trails !   

    Vahan 

  • 05 Feb 2017 3:41 PM
    Reply # 4592669 on 4519294
    Anonymous

    A well written article Vahan - some progressive stage photos would be appreciated.  Thanks Danny


  • 07 Feb 2017 4:01 AM
    Reply # 4595583 on 4519294
    Anonymous

    Hi All,

      For the curious, I've added a few photo's from my tank rebuild here:

    http://www.101scout.org/tank-rebuild-photos

    Regards,

    Ashley

  • 13 Mar 2017 9:43 PM
    Reply # 4664968 on 4519294
    Anonymous

    A well known Indian parts supplier on the West coast had a person in the shop that would de solder old indian tanks, that i was lucky enough to talk to 25 years or more ago, ( a higher percentage out of the 40's) then bead blast the parts until they would take Solder. Solder such as 50/50 or 63/37 could then be tinned onto the cleaner steel in order to cover the entire surface with tin.  This is all good.  However,,  Perfection is to have a hot tank that boils the old oil and gas out of the sheet metal then acid etch the sheet metal  in a separate bath so that it is as close to being perfectly clean as possible from the inside out,  then dip all of the parts into a molten bath of 100% pure tin that we obtain from a tin mine in Malaysia.  All tin is not pure but ours is,,   after several dippings, When this is done you are left with a very thick layer of golden silver oxidized pure tin that is nothing less than as perfect as possible to then do repairs on old original sheet metal.  I feel it is best to use three heat ranges of solder when Re assempling the tinned parts,  Antimony is key in the high heat range solder then Pb  (lead) is used in conjuction with Sn in percentages that allow flow at lower heat ranges.  The Antimony (sb) is one number higher on the periodic table and therefor as close to Tin as possible yet allows for " Tacking " of parts to be accomplished so that when the lower heat Solder is used, the " tacked parts stay put. 

    A jig must be used to attain the correct spacing of the mounting holes from side to side.  The mounting jig should be made before you dis assemble your tank halves so that you dont loose track.  Front to back spacing is not usually a problem due to the defined holes in the bottom of the tank front to back.  Its the side to side that is the trick when you re-assemble your tank halves you must be sure to slide them together enough so that the attachment holes line up again. 

    Cleanliness is next to godliness !  and if re- assembled correctly your tanks will fit perfectly and last for many more generations no matter how big the mouse nest that you found them with.  ;-)

    Every on !!!!!  

 AMCA Chapter WebRing AMCA National 
Next >>       Random       Hub       << Prev
 
Classic Motorcycle Webring

Classic Motorcycle Webring

Join Now | Ring Hub | Random | << Prev | Next >>

Indian Motorcycles Webring
 
<< Prev | Hub | Rate | Next >>

Copyright © 2009 The 101 Association, Inc. All rights reserved. 

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software