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For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
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'30 101 wheel truing and tires

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  • 25 Nov 2023 10:45 AM
    Message # 13283394

    Finally got to the point of putting my '30 101 back together after restoring all of the pieces and parts.  All of the restored pieces have been sitting in an upstairs bedroom since the pandemic so I figure it is time to get this Scout together and let it see the light of day :)   I figured lacing up the wheels would be a good place to start.  Followed the Tech Tips as a guide to installing the new spokes.  From what I can see it appears that for the front wheel, the the back side of the spoke flange on the drum should line up with the outside of the rim and for the rear wheel the spoke flanges on the hub should be centered on the rim.  Just want to get confirmation on this before I start grinding off the protruding ends of the spokes.  

    When truing the wheel I see that the rim does have a little bit of a wobble.  I did not measure it yet but I would say it is on the order of .035" or so.  Guessing it because these 93 year old rims are not perfect and maybe you can only get it "so good".  It does have a bit of a hop to it as well, not sure I am going to be able to get that perfect either.  Any guidelines as to how much runout is tolerable here?   Also - any need to buy a spoke torque wrench or is tightening by feel good enough?

    As far as the 4x18 tires go - I think Coker has them.  Are there other suppliers that would have something that would also be period correct?  Any opinions as to which tires you might recommend?

    Last but not least, I am sure there is a way to search the discussion forum for a particular topic.  It wasn't obvious to me as to how to do that but if you can give me a hint that would be great.  Thanks in advance  :)

  • 26 Nov 2023 1:25 AM
    Reply # 13283518 on 13283394

    It's best to straighten the rims round and true before lacing them up. It can be done with good result in a hydraulic press. Especially if they are out of round. A hopping wheel is worst to have in my opinion, that is always noticeable on the road. A minor out of round could be corrected with spoke tension but you can not or should not correct a rim damage with spoke tension, that makes a too big difference in spoke tension that could be dangerous. A minor wobble is easier to true with spoke tension and even if a slight wobble remains, that might not be felt at speed on the road. 

    Be very aware that original spokes are thin and always worn at the button because of corrosion and wear, and threads can be rusted thin so safer is to have all new spokes especially if the spoke tension has to be unequal because the rim is not perfect. 

    Spokes should be torqued hard but not at all be torqued to the limit because that can rip the button off or shearing threads. And a loose flexing spoke is going to wear and break. It is really rather important to have them fairly equally torqued. I don't have a torque wrench, I listen on the sound the nipples make and the ping of the spoke.

    Regurarly check spoke tension, a good time to ping the spokes is every time you oil or adjust the drive chain.

    Front rim should be in center of the hub, but the rear hub can be a bit troublesome. It is not certain that the rear fork is centered in the frame! Try mount the bare hub or laced wheel without the tire first in the frame, and carefully check chain alignment with the engine mounted.

    It might be that you have to correct the rear fork to one or the other side, and when that is ok, center the rim between the fork tubes, adjust the rim position perhaps offset a bit with spokes because the tire does not have much space between the frame fork. 

    Last modified: 12 Jan 2024 8:44 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 26 Nov 2023 7:30 AM
    Reply # 13283543 on 13283394
    John Lindberg (Administrator)

    To search for a key word, simply type it into the "Search" box in the upper left corner of a forum page.  Wait a second or two, and all of the matches will show up in a list.  Simply click on a topic to review that discussion.  When I typed in "wheel", numerous topics similar to this one appeared.

  • 26 Nov 2023 8:53 AM
    Reply # 13283547 on 13283394

    Thanks Carl-Erik for your help.  Thanks John for the search pointer - I was entering "wheel" followed by enter like you would on a Google search.  

  • 26 Nov 2023 10:06 AM
    Reply # 13283559 on 13283394
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Bill, I have heard that Buchanons can reroll the Kelsey Hayes drop centre rims, I believe it used to be around a hundred dollars per rim or so. Never tried it myself, as with shipping etc it can be a pricey way to go. 

    Out of round best sorted before spoking, as Carl-Erik suggests. Run out, as a rough guidleline, the UK mot inspection requires a runout of not more than 4 mm ( 0.157") on a steel rim , and not more than 3mm out of round. A little over these numbers is going to be barely noticeable, and these figures are relevant modern vehicles.

    I would thoroughly recommend looking at Dunlop K70 tyres, while the Coker diamond pattern look the part, they have a tendency to be quite out of balance, and I have found them unsuited to wet conditions. The K70 is not only much cheaper , but a considerably better all round product. Jeff Alperin, who puts a Lot of miles on his scout, used a modern pattern Michelin on his Cannonball expedition.

  • 26 Nov 2023 4:51 PM
    Reply # 13283638 on 13283394

    Thanks Tim, I like the idea of Dunlops.  I may also check Buchanan on the rim roll.   I did try to fix my wobble on the front wheel and I can't pull it off with spoke adjustment so I guess it is time switch to another option.  Karl-Erik - you mentioned the use of a hydraulic press.  I have a small press, but wouldn't there need to be a fixture of some type that would need to be used?  Also - as far as checking for "roundness" - what method do you use to check that?  The only way I knew of was spoking and truing and see if you end up with a hop :)

    Last modified: 26 Nov 2023 4:52 PM | Bill Erickson
  • 05 Dec 2023 5:14 AM
    Reply # 13287098 on 13283394

    For roundness I have made a simple half circular template out of a sheet of aluminium to check the inner circumference, half circular because it is easier to spot imperfections with it, and mark out where the undulations are. Then I press, or pound with a small sledge hammer with supports most often shaped for the purpose and a hardwood dowel depending on the damage.

    Usually a dent imperfection stretches quite a bit around the circumference so supports often needs to be wide apart, it takes a bit of touch to know how things move. I don't correct creases or folds that may compromise the integrity of a rim, but twists, dents and imperfections is doable this way. 

    I have run Avon M-S safety mileage mk2 that I am satisfied with. 

    Last modified: 12 Jan 2024 8:48 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 07 Dec 2023 6:58 PM
    Reply # 13288592 on 13287098
    Carl-Erik Renquist wrote:

    For roundness I have made a simple half circular template out of a sheet of aluminium to check the inner circumference, and mark out where the undulations are. Then I press, or pound with a small sledge hammer with supports most often shaped for the purpose and a hardwood dowel depending on the damage.

    Usually a dent imperfection stretches quite a bit around the circumference so supports often needs to be wide apart, it takes a bit of touch to know how things move. I don't correct creases or folds that may compromise the integrity of a rim, but twists, dents and imperfections is doable this way. 

    I have run Avon M-S safety mileage mk2 that I am satisfied with. 

    Thanks very much Carl-Erik, really appreciate the information.  I will give this a try :)
  • 17 Dec 2023 5:35 AM
    Reply # 13291823 on 13283394

    I strongly recommend motocross inner tubes of known and reliable brands. They come in 3 thicknesses, standard at 1mm, Heavy duty at 2mm and ultra heavy duty at 4mm thickness. And a good quality rim band to protect from spokes and nipples chafing. Moose should't be used, much of the suspension that the 101 is depending on is lost in the tires with that. The 101 rely on low tire pressure for comfort and grip.

    You gain a degree of safety and wear resistance with heavy duty tubes compared with standard, and in an occcation of small object penetration it might hold pressure a bit longer than the thinner ones. Also easier to patch up, sturdier to handle.

    Buy a repair kit at the same time, you'll see Murpy's law says you never have to use it then...

    But Never use shady budget inner tubes.

    Last modified: 17 Dec 2023 5:46 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 18 Dec 2023 9:59 PM
    Reply # 13292447 on 13283394

    Update:  I contacted Buchanan's and unfortunately they cannot re-roll the rims.  Maybe they used to to do that but apparently they do not have the fender roller equipment.  I did talk with a couple of folks there and they said they would use a rawhide mallet to bang on the rim to try and coax the metal back where it should be.  They said most likely the rim would need to be refinished which was a bit of a bummer as it had a fresh paint job recently.  After Carl-Erik mentioned the use of a press, I decided to take matters into my own hands and give it a shot.  I made a simple measuring device - basically a paint stick cut to 17.75", which is the width between the walls of the rim.  Laying the rim flat on the workbench, I inserted the paint stick (skinny side up) in between the walls of the rim at the 12 and 6 o'clock position, 1 and 7 position, etc. around the rim.  It became apparent the trouble was between the 3 and 9 position.  The paint stick could not be inserted at those points, and at the 12 and 6 position there was enough slop the paint stick easily dropped into place with a bit of room to spare.  I figured applying pressure 90 degrees from the tight points might just do the trick.  I then took the rim to the press and inserted it vertically so that the 12 position was at the top of the press and the 6 position was down at the bottom.  I made sure to put a block of oak under the rim and one on top of the rim where I was going to apply pressure (at the 12 position).  I gently applied some pressure and then removed the rim and used the paint stick again to see if we had any movement.  Turned out there was no change, the metal flexed back to where it had been before.  I had a feeling that was going to be the case but I wanted to start easy and work in small steps.  On my third attempt it "felt' like it moved.  I took it out and used the paint stick method - now it dropped into the 9 and 3 position and it still fit between the 12 and 6 position.  I then proceeded to check at various points around the rim and everything looked good (at least with my rudimentary measuring device).  While I didn't do any precise measurements, I could tell there was definitely progress and the good news is that the paint finish was not compromised, except for a very small spot which I was able to touch up.  I then proceeded to lace the rim up and true it and sure enough there was a remarkable improvement!  I am not going to say it is 100 percent perfect, but it is definitely an order of magnitude better than it was.  I don't have a bunch of equipment in my shop but sometimes something even as a simple as a paint stick can come in handy in the budget-minded shop  :)


    Last modified: 18 Dec 2023 9:59 PM | Bill Erickson
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